Podcast:
Coldplay, Cheating and the Sanctity of Marriage | Cross Examined Ep. 2

00:00:00.160 Welcome to another episode of
00:00:01.439 Cross-examine with the Gerbers. I’m Ken
00:00:03.360 Gerber. This is my wife, Megan Gerber.
00:00:05.359 We got a lot in store for you today.
00:00:06.879 Well, Megan does.
00:00:11.280 >> Take it away, Megan.
00:00:13.040 >> Come on. And you know how to talk. I’ve
00:00:15.360 seen you talk. Or I mean, I’ve heard you
00:00:17.440 talk. Well, one of the big hot topics is
00:00:21.359 the guy that got caught on the Kiss Cam
00:00:24.720 at the Coldplay concert.
00:00:26.880 >> Yeah. Actually, I first would like to
00:00:28.720 talk about we’ve seen Coldplay.
00:00:31.039 >> Amazing company.
00:00:31.920 >> That was fabulous. Yeah.
00:00:33.840 >> It was years ago, right?
00:00:35.440 >> We had a suite at Hila River, which is
00:00:37.680 Is it still called Hila River?
00:00:39.120 >> No, no, no. I think it’s Talking Stick
00:00:40.640 Arena now.
00:00:41.840 >> Talking Stick?
00:00:42.879 >> No, I don’t know.
00:00:43.760 >> Talking Stick’s downtown. We’re in
00:00:45.440 Phoenix, guys, if you don’t know. But I
00:00:47.840 think it’s still Healer River. Anyways,
00:00:50.320 we saw Coldplay and they didn’t have any
00:00:52.960 kiss cams when we did it. No, but what
00:00:55.520 they did do is you remember they had
00:00:56.960 everybody wear those LED light bracelets
00:01:00.239 >> and so they were controlling the colors
00:01:02.719 and everybody as they’re waving their
00:01:04.400 arms up in the air, they were
00:01:05.519 controlling the colors of it. So that
00:01:07.040 was really a cool concert and their
00:01:08.880 music’s so good anyway.
00:01:09.920 >> Oh yeah, totally. Well, I’d like to give
00:01:12.159 my opinion on that guy and that gal
00:01:15.840 deserved it.
00:01:16.720 >> Yeah.
00:01:17.200 >> I mean, you cheat and you’re going to
00:01:20.880 get caught hopefully. There’s a Bible
00:01:22.560 verse about that. I don’t know what it’s
00:01:24.640 called. I read it this morning. But
00:01:26.479 yeah, that’s that’s tough. There’s so
00:01:28.240 many people that cheat. There’s so many
00:01:29.840 divorces nowadays. We’re not immune to
00:01:31.759 that. I’ve been divorced. You’ve been
00:01:33.520 divorced.
00:01:34.000 >> Correct.
00:01:34.640 >> This is our second marriage. I think
00:01:36.880 though what people don’t realize is him
00:01:39.759 cheating and this gal cheating started a
00:01:43.520 long time ago if they’re both married
00:01:46.000 from what I read.
00:01:47.360 >> Yeah. And you know, I believe in
00:01:51.119 marriage that it starts with little
00:01:55.600 things like smiling at the receptionist.
00:01:59.360 And you have experience with that. We’ve
00:02:00.880 how many how many receptionists, not
00:02:03.200 now, how many receptionists have we
00:02:04.960 hired that actually will not put the
00:02:08.399 phone back to you and they feel like
00:02:09.758 they’re your protector?
00:02:11.440 >> Yeah. It’s this this weird kind of
00:02:13.520 relationship. And I think there’s a lot
00:02:15.520 of people that work in offices that are
00:02:18.640 subject to this where they develop these
00:02:22.239 business relationships
00:02:24.879 at work, but there’s just this level
00:02:28.000 that it goes beyond that. And whether
00:02:29.840 it’s just like you said, a simple smile,
00:02:32.480 whether it’s a a a small comment or, you
00:02:35.840 know, a flirtatious glance, it’s all
00:02:39.519 opening the door to something more. And
00:02:43.120 we as married people
00:02:47.200 have to do whatever we can to protect
00:02:50.239 the sanctity of our marriage.
00:02:52.000 >> Even if you’re having a bad day, you and
00:02:53.680 your wife have been fighting. Your
00:02:55.840 marriage has been feeling like it’s just
00:02:58.800 a routine. There’s no more romance.
00:03:02.720 And you know, you get to the office and
00:03:04.640 you want a little dopamine boost. And so
00:03:06.640 you check out somebody that you work
00:03:09.360 with because they got a tight top on or
00:03:11.360 their cleavage is showing. And a lot of
00:03:12.800 guys I really believe
00:03:15.200 think it’s not a big deal. We’re men.
00:03:18.159 God, even Christians,
00:03:19.840 >> right?
00:03:20.239 >> God made women for our pleasure. God
00:03:23.599 made your wife for your pleasure.
00:03:24.879 >> He made our wives for our pleasure.
00:03:26.560 Yeah. Let’s be very clear about that.
00:03:28.480 >> And I’m not saying women are innocent. I
00:03:30.959 mean, how many times, you know, one of
00:03:33.280 the stories that I tell everybody is the
00:03:36.159 bank story.
00:03:37.280 >> Oh, yeah.
00:03:38.239 >> How many times would you go to the bank
00:03:41.120 with the checks from the law firm and
00:03:44.640 you’d roll up, they would say, cuz I’m
00:03:47.040 on the phone with you cuz you’re on your
00:03:48.080 way home from work,
00:03:49.200 >> right? I’m going through the the
00:03:50.400 drive-thru teller.
00:03:51.519 >> Yes. And I’d hear the girl go, "Oh, hi,
00:03:55.599 Ken.
00:03:57.200 How are you today?" And I’m like, ew.
00:04:01.599 Like every time I’ve been through the
00:04:04.400 same girl that has taken my checks for
00:04:07.360 the law firm. Hello. Will this be all
00:04:10.480 today?
00:04:11.439 >> Right.
00:04:12.000 >> Totally different.
00:04:13.519 >> Right.
00:04:14.319 >> And I don’t know where that comes from
00:04:16.238 with women that they always are feeling
00:04:17.839 like they have to be flirtatious to
00:04:20.639 guys. So, they’re opening that up for
00:04:22.720 that as well. It’s not just on the guys
00:04:25.680 >> completely. I found even being married
00:04:28.560 to you and you being an attorney, even
00:04:31.600 in front of me, women have flirted with
00:04:33.840 you. Aggressively flirted with you. It’s
00:04:36.800 shocking to me because it’s like women
00:04:39.120 want to say that we all stick together,
00:04:41.919 but women are vicious.
00:04:44.080 >> Oh yeah, they are.
00:04:45.040 >> And they are very competitive, right?
00:04:47.040 >> And they want that attention all the
00:04:49.360 time. You know, I tease all the time and
00:04:51.199 I say the guys that I love the most that
00:04:53.040 give me the best advice are gay guys
00:04:55.759 >> cuz they’re they’re seriously they’re
00:04:57.440 like, "Oh, honey, that looks oh that
00:04:59.040 looks like crap. That doesn’t look good.
00:05:01.199 Honey, you’re they’re going to be honest
00:05:03.440 with me. Other females,
00:05:06.479 >> you’re going to get some honesty, but
00:05:08.000 then you’re going to get a little bit of
00:05:09.520 like, well, she looks better than me.
00:05:11.280 I’m not going to be totally honest."
00:05:12.479 >> They’ll sabotage you if they can.
00:05:16.160 >> I don’t know. I just feel like there’s
00:05:18.960 so many people that don’t take their
00:05:22.720 marriage seriously.
00:05:24.479 >> Well, and like we were saying, it starts
00:05:26.800 with just the smallest thing, the
00:05:29.280 smallest step, the just the the tiniest
00:05:32.880 inch is is the foothold where it all
00:05:35.840 starts. And once you get used to that
00:05:38.880 little step, taking another baby step is
00:05:42.800 not that far a stretch. And before you
00:05:44.880 know it, after step after step after
00:05:46.800 step, somebody ends up at a Coldplay
00:05:49.440 concert on the Kiss Cam.
00:05:51.600 >> Absolutely. And now there’s all these
00:05:53.120 divorce attorneys knocking at their door
00:05:54.880 going, "Oh, I’m going to make a bunch of
00:05:56.400 money on this." And I I mean, yes,
00:05:58.320 obviously there has to be a divorce
00:05:59.759 divorce attorneys. We both have been
00:06:01.440 through divorces,
00:06:02.639 >> but they’re not there to try and calm
00:06:05.600 things down.
00:06:07.039 >> No,
00:06:07.600 >> they’re there to spend your money. How
00:06:11.600 many times do people go through a
00:06:13.440 divorce and they leave broke?
00:06:16.400 >> Right.
00:06:17.280 >> I mean, your divorce was one of the most
00:06:19.280 litigated
00:06:21.280 in history of Florida, I think.
00:06:23.600 >> Yeah. Yeah.
00:06:24.560 >> There was over 900 filings,
00:06:26.800 >> right?
00:06:27.600 >> I mean, that’s crazy.
00:06:30.720 >> Yeah. And you know, I’m sure there are
00:06:34.560 some very good, very honorable divorce
00:06:37.440 attorneys out there, but like you were
00:06:38.800 saying, let’s let’s be honest, when
00:06:41.440 they’re
00:06:43.039 getting paid to do that type of work,
00:06:45.840 the more
00:06:48.960 fight that goes on,
00:06:51.759 the more they’re earning. So, there’s a
00:06:53.759 little bit of a conflict of interest in
00:06:56.720 terms of trying to do the best job for
00:06:59.440 your client, trying to get the divorce
00:07:01.199 resolved versus letting them fight it
00:07:04.000 out a little bit and so what? I earn
00:07:05.840 some more money. I’m so glad we don’t do
00:07:08.400 that type of work. I I just I I don’t
00:07:10.479 have the heart for it. I I would not
00:07:11.840 want to do that to people.
00:07:13.039 >> Oh, absolutely not. And what’s funny is
00:07:15.840 right now Jack is almost 20 and he
00:07:17.759 decided, "Oh, I’m just going to go on
00:07:19.039 one of these Christian apps where you
00:07:21.440 swipe left, swipe right, swipe right."
00:07:24.400 And he said to me, he goes, "Mom, you
00:07:26.960 pay a fee to do these apps, which we met
00:07:29.840 online, so we’re not against no meeting
00:07:32.000 online.
00:07:33.520 >> We met on Jate."
00:07:36.560 >> Ken was Jewish or still is Jewish, but
00:07:38.639 he’s he’s a Jew for Jesus. My sister put
00:07:40.800 me on there as a shika to be with.
00:07:43.039 >> Yep. Yep. That’s a whole other story.
00:07:44.880 We’re gonna have to get into that. But
00:07:46.639 what Jack had said was, "Mom, if they
00:07:49.440 made matches, they’d make no money."
00:07:51.360 Right. Their goal isn’t to make matches
00:07:54.160 because they lose two people cuz if you
00:07:56.960 make a match, then those people are
00:07:58.319 going to stop paying.
00:07:59.120 >> They don’t have any reason to be on the
00:08:00.240 dating site anymore.
00:08:01.199 >> Exactly.
00:08:01.919 >> Sure.
00:08:02.319 >> So, what are what are their motives in
00:08:04.160 that?
00:08:04.639 >> Right.
00:08:05.759 >> But yeah, going back to us meeting
00:08:08.240 online, that’s a funny story. Well, we
00:08:11.280 both went through divorces, so let’s get
00:08:13.039 into that a little bit.
00:08:14.240 >> Yeah.
00:08:14.639 >> Your divorce, and let’s just be real.
00:08:16.879 You said you kind of knew when you
00:08:18.319 walked down the aisle that you didn’t
00:08:20.800 really love her. She had pushed you
00:08:23.199 quickly from She had just gone through
00:08:25.199 her second divorce,
00:08:26.319 >> right?
00:08:27.039 >> And this was like February of 2007.
00:08:30.800 >> Yeah.
00:08:31.520 >> And
00:08:31.840 >> No, no, no. 97.
00:08:33.360 >> End of 2007. 97.
00:08:35.039 >> Yeah.
00:08:35.360 >> And you guys were getting married
00:08:36.958 already by August 2007,
00:08:39.279 >> right? It was very quick.
00:08:41.360 >> It was It was very rushed. And I
00:08:44.640 definitely
00:08:46.800 that day getting ready to go down the
00:08:48.959 aisle, I was thinking to myself, "What
00:08:51.200 am I doing, but for whatever reason, I
00:08:54.640 felt too committed to it to do anything
00:08:58.080 at that point." And so, I went through
00:08:59.279 with it. That was it was a horrible
00:09:01.200 decision.
00:09:01.680 >> But look at look at there’s other people
00:09:04.000 out there in your position that can hear
00:09:06.240 you speaking about this right now.
00:09:07.839 >> Yeah. You didn’t want to cancel it
00:09:09.680 because we’re already here. The wedding
00:09:11.440 day is here. The
00:09:13.440 >> the money spent, the people invited, the
00:09:15.920 all the
00:09:16.959 >> plans made
00:09:18.959 >> and the disappointment.
00:09:20.480 >> Yeah.
00:09:20.959 >> Of saying I made a mistake,
00:09:23.279 >> right?
00:09:24.160 >> But looking back on it now, not that you
00:09:26.399 would ever give up your kids that you
00:09:28.320 don’t get to see because of parental
00:09:29.680 alienation. We never want to give up the
00:09:31.680 kids that are that were born out of
00:09:33.760 this.
00:09:34.320 >> No. But you look back
00:09:37.519 >> and look at all the heartache you could
00:09:39.360 have avoided,
00:09:40.800 >> right?
00:09:41.760 >> By stepping up and saying, "Hey, this is
00:09:44.959 not the right decision."
00:09:48.240 >> Yeah. A lot of would have, could have,
00:09:49.920 shoulda, honestly.
00:09:51.200 >> And then what happened? You weren’t
00:09:52.480 happy in your marriage.
00:09:53.600 >> No. And I made some horrible, horrible
00:09:57.760 choices. I was not faithful in that
00:10:01.920 marriage. I went about everything the
00:10:04.800 wrong way.
00:10:05.920 >> So, a lot of people are in your shoes.
00:10:07.680 You’re not you’re not alone with that.
00:10:10.640 >> What made you reach out? What were you
00:10:12.800 looking to get filled by this girl you
00:10:15.839 ended up cheating on with your ex?
00:10:19.279 >> What were you looking to have happen?
00:10:20.720 Cuz I know that for you, you were
00:10:22.880 cheating for years.
00:10:25.600 >> Yeah. Honestly, it was trying to
00:10:32.160 feel some attraction, trying to feel
00:10:34.480 like somebody was attracted to me,
00:10:36.079 trying to have some fun. I had a lot
00:10:38.560 going on where I was just not happy
00:10:41.040 overall because of the decisions that I
00:10:43.760 made. And and so I was looking for
00:10:46.240 something. And you know, I I’d like to
00:10:49.200 think that I’m a very different person
00:10:50.560 now. I like to think that I’ve learned
00:10:52.000 from that. And I I promise you I’ll
00:10:55.200 never do anything like that again. And
00:10:57.120 my advice to anybody who’s even
00:10:59.279 considering it is don’t. Just don’t do
00:11:02.880 it because
00:11:03.760 >> get divorced for I mean get divorced
00:11:05.360 first or have the conversation first.
00:11:07.440 >> Yes. Yes. It’s it’s the wrong thing to
00:11:09.839 do every time to have any type of uh an
00:11:13.519 affair. It’s just wrong.
00:11:14.720 >> You felt like there might be a scandal.
00:11:16.320 I mean in Florida you were a big- time
00:11:18.640 attorney. You had your face was all over
00:11:20.720 the phone book. you were everywhere,
00:11:23.120 >> right?
00:11:23.600 >> And so was that part of it where this
00:11:25.440 guy going back to the Coldplay concert,
00:11:28.399 his, you know, he’s a CEO or CFO, I
00:11:31.760 don’t remember. And do you think that
00:11:34.959 that’s a lot of pressure for
00:11:36.800 professionals to keep face kind of
00:11:39.360 going, I got this. I can’t say I’m
00:11:42.160 getting a divorce cuz that’s going to
00:11:43.440 make me seem weak.
00:11:44.560 >> Sure. And so then I’m going to go behind
00:11:46.800 their back, but it always is going to
00:11:48.959 bite you in the end because they found
00:11:50.640 out about it,
00:11:51.519 >> right? No, no, no. Absolutely.
00:11:55.279 As an attorney in particular, you don’t
00:11:59.120 ever want to
00:12:01.200 show any kind of weakness. You’re
00:12:03.040 supposed to know everything, be the
00:12:05.200 best, be, you know, the most outstanding
00:12:08.240 one, the smartest one in the room as as,
00:12:11.600 you know, essentially a CEO or another
00:12:15.600 top position person. There’s probably a
00:12:18.880 lot of that as well where there’s a lot
00:12:22.000 of ego involved, there’s a lot of drive
00:12:24.000 involved, there’s a lot of competition
00:12:25.839 involved. And anything that shows
00:12:28.959 weakness or perceived weakness of any
00:12:31.680 kind, even if it’s just something that’s
00:12:33.279 made up internally, I think this is
00:12:34.639 going to make me look weak, you want to
00:12:36.399 try and avoid. And if it if it comes
00:12:38.240 down to, well, I’m not happy with my
00:12:41.920 personal life. I’m not in in the
00:12:44.399 relationship I feel like I should be in,
00:12:48.000 then that would lead to that. And so,
00:12:50.079 yeah, there there’s a lot of hiding of
00:12:52.160 things because of that. But then
00:12:54.720 everything comes crashing down because
00:12:56.320 it bites you in the butt.
00:12:58.079 >> Absolutely.
00:12:58.639 >> For a lot of people,
00:12:59.680 >> once you go down that road, it’s going
00:13:02.480 to come crashing down at some point.
00:13:04.240 It’s not a question of if. It’s just a
00:13:06.079 matter of when.
00:13:07.440 >> So being a man of integrity and saying,
00:13:10.639 "Hey, I don’t know what happened. We
00:13:13.040 need to do counseling. I want to leave
00:13:15.440 you." That is always in the end better
00:13:20.240 than
00:13:22.000 to
00:13:23.519 dig a broken well. You know, being
00:13:26.480 Christians
00:13:29.040 always going to the Lord and and seeking
00:13:33.040 his guidance,
00:13:34.399 >> right,
00:13:35.120 >> is is so important. But we’ve known
00:13:36.880 Christians that have went down that
00:13:38.480 road.
00:13:38.959 >> Yeah. that we thought I mean you
00:13:41.760 particularly when you first became
00:13:43.440 Christian you were following one of our
00:13:45.360 friends very deeply and he ended up
00:13:48.240 doing that with his marriage
00:13:50.000 >> right
00:13:50.320 >> and that broke you. So for for a
00:13:52.320 Christian new Christians especially
00:13:55.920 watching the Christians around them
00:13:58.800 seeing their humanness and seeing their
00:14:00.720 sin
00:14:02.560 why do we pretend like we’re not sinful?
00:14:04.880 No, that’s what we talked about before
00:14:07.120 when it comes to doing this this podcast
00:14:09.360 is life is messy. We’re all messy. We
00:14:12.560 all have past. We all make bad
00:14:14.320 decisions. And sometimes those decisions
00:14:17.120 like not
00:14:19.839 seeking counseling, like not working
00:14:23.920 through issues in a marriage and doing
00:14:26.560 the hard work. We’re making the easy
00:14:29.600 decision, the the lowhanging fruit
00:14:31.600 decision of let me get a a dopamine
00:14:34.560 rush, let me get a high off of a
00:14:36.720 flirtation or something like that
00:14:38.639 because that takes my mind and my
00:14:40.399 feelings off of, you know, maybe some
00:14:42.560 heaviness that’s that’s going on in your
00:14:44.480 life. and what we’ve talked about and
00:14:46.880 we’ve come back to again and again and
00:14:48.639 again through
00:14:52.079 our faith.
00:14:54.240 It’s always and forever going to be the
00:14:56.560 better thing to hit that head-on,
00:15:00.240 work through all that. Go through the
00:15:02.480 hard stuff. You can’t have good times
00:15:07.279 without bad times. You wouldn’t have any
00:15:10.079 way to to measure what’s good and what’s
00:15:12.160 not. So,
00:15:14.079 if you want a good marriage, you go
00:15:16.000 through the hard stuff. You hit it head
00:15:17.760 on.
00:15:18.160 >> Well, you always have to look at
00:15:19.519 yourself, too. You know, I’m big on if
00:15:21.920 I’m expecting me to do it, if I’m
00:15:24.320 expecting you to do it,
00:15:26.320 >> I expect me to do it. If I’m expecting
00:15:28.160 you to be truthful, I’m going to be
00:15:29.920 truthful. If I’m expecting you to dig
00:15:32.320 deep into who you are,
00:15:34.079 >> I need to dig deep into who I am. If I
00:15:36.959 have insecurities, I need to look at
00:15:39.360 those insecurities and see how it’s
00:15:40.959 affecting our marriage. If I am
00:15:44.959 not communicating correctly or I am
00:15:48.480 blaming you for things, you know, you
00:15:51.199 can’t have a victim in a marriage
00:15:52.880 because the entire marriage will
00:15:54.959 crumble. One person just can’t be. And
00:15:57.519 I’m not saying there aren’t victims out
00:15:59.199 there. You know, there are definitely
00:16:02.000 before I got married, I was in a an
00:16:04.399 abusive relationship,
00:16:05.839 >> right?
00:16:06.160 >> I had a boyfriend that would beat the
00:16:08.240 crap out of me. So much so that I
00:16:11.199 couldn’t even wear long sleeve shirts.
00:16:12.800 He was definitely
00:16:13.759 >> You couldn’t wear short sleeve shirts.
00:16:16.079 >> Oh, yes. There goes that pmenopause.
00:16:20.560 Blame it all on Perry menopause. I will.
00:16:22.800 And thank you.
00:16:24.320 Um, I couldn’t wear short sleeve shirts
00:16:26.000 because my arms were absolutely black
00:16:28.079 and blue and
00:16:30.959 I got to the point where I didn’t want
00:16:34.079 to be here anymore and he had left me
00:16:36.720 and I didn’t feel like I had anything
00:16:39.680 going on in my life. And that’s when I
00:16:42.000 met Jack’s dad on the heels of that.
00:16:44.959 >> Right
00:16:45.440 >> at that moment. It was so nice not
00:16:47.600 having someone hitting me. And we had
00:16:50.959 our differences. It didn’t work out. But
00:16:54.560 I literally feel like I went from the
00:16:56.959 frying pan to the fire in that
00:16:59.120 circumstance. It was it was something
00:17:01.920 where I found relief in
00:17:06.720 finding a man that wasn’t physically
00:17:09.119 abusive to me. And um I think a lot of
00:17:12.559 people end up settling for multiple
00:17:14.799 reasons.
00:17:16.319 And then when they start healing or they
00:17:19.520 start
00:17:21.760 shifting in their life, they’re not
00:17:24.079 aligned with that person anymore.
00:17:27.199 And that’s the unfortunate thing where
00:17:31.200 two people have to be growing at the
00:17:32.799 same time,
00:17:33.520 >> right?
00:17:34.400 >> It’s unfortunate because a lot of people
00:17:36.640 don’t do that. You have one person
00:17:38.320 growing and you have the other person
00:17:40.559 just kind of like doing their own thing.
00:17:42.320 Well, and you talk about you went in in
00:17:44.559 your prior marriage, you went through
00:17:46.400 counseling yourself and your counselor
00:17:48.559 said something to you along those lines.
00:17:50.240 >> She said one of two things are going to
00:17:52.240 happen. Either he’s going to appreciate
00:17:54.320 the fact that you’re changing and he’s
00:17:55.760 going to change along with you or you’re
00:17:57.039 going to get a divorce because he’s not
00:17:58.640 going to like the new person you’ve
00:18:00.080 become. And I became a new person. You
00:18:03.200 know, at the time I was watching our son
00:18:05.280 Jack 24/7, nursing him 20, you know,
00:18:08.240 with him constantly. And I remember one
00:18:09.760 time I was ill with the flu and I was
00:18:12.559 puking while holding Jack. It was
00:18:14.720 horrible because
00:18:17.200 his dad said, "I didn’t realize that
00:18:19.919 having a child was going to change our
00:18:22.000 lives so much."
00:18:23.280 >> Right.
00:18:23.679 >> Well, it did. I I I felt like I was on a
00:18:27.840 boat leaving the pier with our new child
00:18:31.200 and our new life, and he just was kind
00:18:32.960 of like, I’m going to stay on this pier.
00:18:35.760 I was moving forward.
00:18:38.960 in a new chapter and he wanted to stay
00:18:41.600 in the old chapter.
00:18:44.080 And I said, I remember specifically this
00:18:48.080 one day I was complaining to my sister.
00:18:50.880 >> Oh, this is funny cuz this leads right
00:18:52.559 into the the uh us meeting online thing.
00:18:56.080 >> I don’t know if it was the same day.
00:18:57.679 >> Oh,
00:18:58.400 >> but I remember saying to her, you know,
00:19:03.280 Jack’s dad did this and I’m so sick. And
00:19:06.880 I literally heard myself
00:19:10.000 complaining about the same stuff. It was
00:19:13.280 like, girl, either you’re going to do
00:19:15.919 something about it or shut up. I mean,
00:19:19.600 quit complaining about crap like you’re
00:19:22.960 like, you can’t you do have options. You
00:19:25.679 can leave him. You can go to counseling.
00:19:28.080 There’s things that you can do in your
00:19:29.760 life that a lot of us act like
00:19:33.840 we can’t. We’re not a tree. We can move.
00:19:37.919 A tree has to stay where it’s at. We are
00:19:40.480 not a tree. We can actually pick
00:19:42.720 ourselves up. Well, what about this?
00:19:44.400 What about that? Okay. Well, if you have
00:19:46.160 all those scenarios that you’re telling
00:19:47.600 yourself so you can’t leave, then quit
00:19:50.640 complaining and figure out a solution.
00:19:53.120 >> Some other way to do something about it.
00:19:55.120 >> Yes. And so my solution was counseling.
00:19:57.360 He didn’t want to do counseling. And
00:20:00.799 the counseling helped me realize and you
00:20:03.520 laugh all the time because I was a
00:20:05.440 submissive wife.
00:20:08.559 I know you can’t believe that. I was
00:20:11.200 submissive. I was the one
00:20:12.720 >> that been my experience.
00:20:14.240 >> Well, the counseling really worked.
00:20:17.919 So, I was the one who, you know, I was
00:20:20.720 expected to have dinner ready. I was
00:20:22.400 expected to have the house clean. I was
00:20:24.400 expected to do all the things and just
00:20:29.440 do it and be quiet about it. I was so
00:20:32.320 desperately
00:20:34.080 didn’t want him to leave me because I
00:20:36.960 have abandonment issues. Not that I was
00:20:38.880 abandoned as a kid, but emotionally I
00:20:40.480 feel like I was abandoned in multiple
00:20:42.480 situations by my parents. I think that’s
00:20:44.880 why I was abused too by the guy that I
00:20:47.760 dated before him. I think there’s a lot
00:20:50.320 of people that are willing to put up
00:20:52.559 with things if they have low self-esteem
00:20:55.919 issues. So, going back to all of that is
00:20:59.679 working on us is key, but then working
00:21:02.880 together is absolutely critical,
00:21:06.000 >> right,
00:21:06.400 >> in any marriage,
00:21:07.840 >> right?
00:21:08.240 >> And so,
00:21:10.880 I ended up going for counseling. And
00:21:13.679 then on Jack’s second birthday, we were
00:21:16.159 in San Diego. And at the time, my sister
00:21:18.880 was married to a Jewish man. And I
00:21:21.600 thought, man, they’re so cute with that
00:21:22.960 dark skin and that hair and they’re just
00:21:25.120 that smile. They’re just so cute. And so
00:21:27.039 my sister’s like, "I am putting you on a
00:21:29.280 dating site." I’m like, "No, absolutely
00:21:32.080 not. I don’t have the same body that I
00:21:34.400 did." I mean, at the time I was I was
00:21:37.039 kind of in shape. I was 125 lbs. I’m
00:21:40.480 5’7.
00:21:41.520 >> Well, and at at that time, you and
00:21:43.679 Jack’s dad were were separated. We were
00:21:46.799 officially separated. We were officially
00:21:48.320 separated.
00:21:48.880 >> So, you weren’t getting on a dating site
00:21:50.320 while still actively engaged in
00:21:52.480 marriage.
00:21:52.960 >> This was this was like
00:21:54.799 >> This was probably a year later.
00:21:56.400 >> Yeah.
00:21:56.799 >> I started counseling for a full year and
00:21:59.120 then he went on e-harmony and found his
00:22:01.440 current wife
00:22:02.080 >> and you helped him with that.
00:22:03.120 >> I did. I did. We ended up just becoming
00:22:06.080 friends. It just didn’t work out.
00:22:08.000 >> Very, very rare in any divorce
00:22:10.080 situation.
00:22:11.120 >> I actually begged him to see Jack
00:22:13.200 because in the beginning he wasn’t
00:22:14.559 seeing him. He found his new girlfriend
00:22:16.320 and he was out and about and I kept
00:22:20.799 asking him to see his son. But that’s a
00:22:24.400 whole other thing with the parental
00:22:25.600 alienation which is so sad because you
00:22:27.679 don’t see your boys and that’s not
00:22:29.679 because we didn’t try
00:22:31.120 >> right.
00:22:31.600 >> We tried desperately to see our your
00:22:34.640 boys our boys which are my stepsons
00:22:37.919 which I’m not allowed to call them that
00:22:39.520 because of the court hearing. Yes. His
00:22:41.760 ex actually said in court, "I’m not
00:22:45.679 allowed to they’re not allowed to call
00:22:47.280 me stepmom."
00:22:48.159 >> Right.
00:22:49.039 >> Yes. It’s horrible what happened. You
00:22:51.360 left her, but kids should never be used
00:22:55.760 as
00:22:57.520 weapons.
00:22:58.480 >> No.
00:22:59.280 >> And you love your boys dearly.
00:23:02.400 And so many years
00:23:05.120 we would fight to see them. And she
00:23:08.559 would fight to get you not to be able to
00:23:11.280 see them,
00:23:11.840 >> right?
00:23:12.640 >> It was very sad. And it’s still very sad
00:23:14.480 because you desperately want a
00:23:15.760 relationship with them.
00:23:16.960 >> I do. I do.
00:23:19.200 >> And we want a relationship with them.
00:23:20.960 >> Maybe someday.
00:23:22.880 >> You’ve changed so much since the
00:23:25.840 divorce. You left her in 2007,
00:23:29.679 January. We met in February 2008. So,
00:23:33.840 you were already going through your
00:23:35.039 divorce
00:23:36.640 and at the time you were not a
00:23:40.799 practicing Jew really? You weren’t going
00:23:43.760 to temple or anything like that. You
00:23:45.919 kind of said to me you were a little bit
00:23:47.200 of an atheist.
00:23:49.039 >> Yeah.
00:23:50.640 >> What has changed now to prepare you to
00:23:52.880 be a better father? I know there’s a
00:23:54.159 book you’re reading. Can you tell
00:23:56.320 everybody what you feel that how you’ve
00:23:58.480 changed where if they do come back into
00:24:00.640 your lives that you could be the dad
00:24:03.200 that you want to be?
00:24:04.960 Yeah, I’ve I’ve spent a lot of time
00:24:08.559 working on
00:24:10.640 myself, working through some of the
00:24:12.640 issues that I had that led me to make
00:24:16.240 those bad decisions
00:24:18.559 of cheating on my ex-wife and probably a
00:24:22.320 lot of bad decisions with with
00:24:24.720 parenting, too. And yeah, the the book
00:24:27.440 that I was reading was really really
00:24:31.679 profound to me. And so much of the the
00:24:37.600 decisions that we make are based on
00:24:42.000 how we were treated when we were
00:24:43.760 younger.
00:24:44.400 >> Can you say what the book is?
00:24:46.240 >> Sure. It’s called King Me. Can’t
00:24:48.159 remember the author right now, but Okay.
00:24:49.760 It was It was really a phenomenal book
00:24:51.520 and I I I recommend that highly. I’ve
00:24:54.640 actually I’ve told other friends. I I
00:24:57.840 said, "I’m going to buy you that book. I
00:24:59.919 want you to read it. If you get as much
00:25:02.640 out of it as I did, I’ll buy you two
00:25:05.279 more copies that you can give to two
00:25:06.960 friends. I just believed in it that
00:25:09.520 sincerely. I I think it has just some
00:25:12.559 amazing things to say. And it’s it’s
00:25:14.559 written for men, and it’s it’s
00:25:18.159 Christian. It’s faith-based, which I
00:25:21.120 think, you know, first and foremost,
00:25:22.559 that’s always what leads people to
00:25:25.760 change and analyze their life in the
00:25:29.039 spotlight of of Jesus and and how we’re
00:25:33.120 instructed to act. And it really says so
00:25:37.360 much about that. And
00:25:40.480 it makes us go back and analyze how we
00:25:45.200 were raised. And the a couple of quotes
00:25:49.039 were just really really significant. But
00:25:50.880 one of them which I don’t think this
00:25:53.600 author really coined himself, but it was
00:25:57.120 the first time that was spoken to me or
00:25:59.279 that I read it.
00:26:00.480 >> Wounded people wound people. Mhm.
00:26:02.880 >> And it’s so
00:26:05.120 blatantly obvious that that happens that
00:26:08.480 anybody who’s acting out in their
00:26:12.480 marriage or in their life, they’re doing
00:26:15.039 it to fill a hole.
00:26:17.039 >> And that hole came from something that
00:26:19.919 they didn’t get as a child.
00:26:23.840 And turns out that the parent or in a
00:26:28.320 lot of cases it’s it’s the father figure
00:26:31.440 that created that hole. They were acting
00:26:34.240 that way as a father because of their
00:26:37.120 own father because what happened to them
00:26:38.640 as a child in it just perpetuates and I
00:26:41.520 think that’s that generational sin that
00:26:43.679 people talk about.
00:26:44.799 >> Kind of like that one movie
00:26:46.240 >> The shack.
00:26:47.039 >> Yeah. It’s one of our favorite movies.
00:26:48.799 >> Amazing movie.
00:26:49.600 >> You’re going to end up crying no matter
00:26:50.880 who you are. I cry every time we watch
00:26:53.600 it
00:26:54.080 >> because what it shows is who who,
00:26:57.279 spoiler alert, who is to blame,
00:27:00.320 >> who’s ultimately at fault.
00:27:02.320 >> And you see how someone that has been
00:27:05.600 abused abuses and then that child may
00:27:08.480 grow up abusing. And it goes on and on
00:27:11.120 and on and on. And if you were to stand
00:27:14.799 there and this is part of the movie and
00:27:17.200 you’re playing God and you say both of
00:27:20.080 your kids have sinned, pick which one
00:27:22.240 would that will die. Could could you
00:27:25.039 pick one of your kids
00:27:26.080 >> or not?
00:27:27.360 >> You’d say if someone has to die, pick
00:27:29.919 me.
00:27:30.400 >> Take me.
00:27:31.200 >> And that’s what God did as sending Jesus
00:27:34.880 to the cross,
00:27:36.080 >> right?
00:27:37.279 >> Take me in in place of one of my
00:27:40.159 children.
00:27:40.880 >> Yeah. And so when you’re addressing,
00:27:43.360 somebody has to at some point throughout
00:27:47.039 the generations has to put their foot
00:27:49.360 down and say, "I’m going to address this
00:27:52.640 generational sin. I’m going to address
00:27:55.440 these hurts that have been perpetuated
00:27:58.159 and this hole that I’m feeling, this
00:27:59.919 hole in my heart. And the only way to do
00:28:03.039 it really and truly is to bring Jesus
00:28:07.440 >> Yeah.
00:28:08.000 >> in there. And it’s very and and I don’t
00:28:10.559 mean to like switch subjects because
00:28:11.919 it’s not switching really. Does it feel
00:28:15.360 odd to you when you started
00:28:18.159 acting more
00:28:20.159 protective of our marriage? Like I’m not
00:28:22.159 going to go to a bar. I’m not going to
00:28:24.399 be hanging out with other girls in
00:28:26.640 bikinis in a pool. I’m not going to be
00:28:29.039 doing these things where guys go, "Come
00:28:30.880 on, like suck it up. We’re men." Or even
00:28:33.440 men that are Christian are like, "Women
00:28:35.120 are made to be beautiful. We’re supposed
00:28:36.559 to enjoy that. We’re supposed to enjoy
00:28:38.399 their beauty. It’s a shame that men make
00:28:41.360 you feel like you’re not a man unless
00:28:43.840 you’re looking at chicks.
00:28:45.919 >> Yeah. Well, there’s so much in our
00:28:47.440 culture and even in in Christian
00:28:49.120 culture, there’s so much that’s just
00:28:50.720 accepted for men to do and and women for
00:28:53.600 that matter, for men and women to to do
00:28:55.360 together. And we’ve gone so far as when
00:28:58.080 we designed our law office,
00:29:00.240 >> we have windows on the doors to the
00:29:03.200 conference rooms.
00:29:04.080 >> Yes. So that way men and women aren’t
00:29:07.200 sitting in a conference room alone
00:29:09.440 together
00:29:11.039 because there’s at least a window where
00:29:12.559 they’re they’re observed. And that’s
00:29:15.120 what we talk about with taking
00:29:17.440 precautions every day. It’s not just
00:29:21.679 not, you know, looking at the the women
00:29:24.240 in bikinis at the pool. That’s an
00:29:26.000 obvious one. But you know the example of
00:29:30.080 >> a secretary dropping off letters on your
00:29:32.080 desk and just checking out her butt as
00:29:34.080 she walks away,
00:29:34.880 >> right? Something that simple
00:29:36.640 >> cuz you’re definitely not checking out
00:29:37.840 the guy’s butts. I mean, some may.
00:29:39.919 >> No. And that’s that’s what you always
00:29:41.440 say is is if it’s not something you
00:29:44.559 would do with somebody of the same sex,
00:29:47.120 if it’s not the same tone of voice, if
00:29:48.799 it’s not the same look, if it’s not the
00:29:50.640 way the same way you would dress, if
00:29:52.240 you’re just going to be around people of
00:29:54.320 the same sex, then you’ve got to really
00:29:57.279 look at yourself and decide why that is.
00:29:59.440 >> And a lot of people would think that
00:30:00.720 maybe we’re uptight. But we have
00:30:03.679 something fierce to protect, and that’s
00:30:05.600 our marriage. Without a doubt, I would
00:30:08.159 much rather spend all of our time and
00:30:10.159 effort focusing and protecting our
00:30:12.399 marriage and building our marriage and
00:30:13.919 growing together than to even have those
00:30:17.760 distractions out there. And it’s a
00:30:19.840 fight. It’s a fight to make sure that
00:30:21.520 you don’t get distracted. And it’s worth
00:30:23.360 it.
00:30:23.679 >> It definitely is. And I was watching
00:30:25.360 TikTok the other day and Bethany
00:30:27.120 Frankle, she mentioned something where
00:30:30.399 she said, you know, you have these guys
00:30:32.480 in their late 50s deciding they’re sick
00:30:34.960 of their wives. Their wives don’t look
00:30:36.480 young anymore. Their wives are nagging
00:30:38.320 on them. And it’s not just their wives
00:30:40.240 fault that they’re nagging. It’s it’s
00:30:41.840 takes two to tango. You know, both of
00:30:43.520 them are involved in this. And then they
00:30:45.600 end up leaving their wives for some
00:30:48.960 young girl who is got a younger body,
00:30:52.720 maybe just never had any kids. And this
00:30:54.960 young girl is just so enamored by him.
00:30:57.279 Well, especially if they have money.
00:30:59.120 Right.
00:30:59.600 >> Right. And then fast forward 20 years,
00:31:04.960 that same 70year-old, 75year-old is
00:31:08.240 watching his 50-year-old wife in her
00:31:10.880 prime
00:31:13.360 knowing
00:31:15.200 she’s not looking at him the same,
00:31:16.960 >> right?
00:31:17.679 >> And so, you’re going to pay it
00:31:18.960 somewhere. And why not just grow old
00:31:21.200 with someone?
00:31:22.080 >> I would much rather have that any day.
00:31:25.600 Grow old together, live life together.
00:31:29.600 But I think that’s where depth comes in,
00:31:32.960 >> right?
00:31:33.600 >> So many people are very shallow and
00:31:36.320 they, you know, they’d rather live in a
00:31:38.559 shallow
00:31:40.720 microwave type of life where it’s very
00:31:43.039 quick and moving and there’s no depth.
00:31:46.640 But if you do want to have depth in your
00:31:48.799 life, I’m very much a forwardthinking
00:31:51.760 person. I took one of those tests and
00:31:54.000 they said I’m futuristic. I’m like the
00:31:56.159 Jetsons.
00:31:57.679 Isn’t that funny? They say what what was
00:31:59.440 the year on the Jetsons when they said,
00:32:01.200 "Oh, life is going to be like this."
00:32:03.200 What was it like 2000 or something?
00:32:05.519 >> Yeah, I think we’ve already passed.
00:32:06.480 >> I love watching these shows where they
00:32:07.919 say, "This is what it’s going to be
00:32:08.960 like." And you’re like, "On what
00:32:10.799 planet?"
00:32:11.840 >> Not Earth. But I forgot now.
00:32:17.679 >> I don’t know. You were talking about the
00:32:19.039 Jetsons. Now I’m distracted by that.
00:32:21.519 >> What was I saying before that?
00:32:24.960 >> You’re very futuristic.
00:32:26.559 >> Oh, yes. You’re forward thinking.
00:32:28.159 >> Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so I I
00:32:30.480 teach the kids and I always say to them,
00:32:33.919 if you what you’re going to do today,
00:32:35.679 you can’t live with yourself 5 years
00:32:37.279 from now that you did that.
00:32:41.120 I wouldn’t do that.
00:32:42.799 >> Right. Great advice.
00:32:44.399 >> If you can’t look back at yourself 5
00:32:47.360 years from now and say, "Guess what?
00:32:50.080 This could possibly come out. I’m going
00:32:52.559 to be known for this." If you’re going
00:32:54.880 to, you know, the kids being young and
00:32:57.919 having their virginity, you know what?
00:33:00.559 That bell can’t be unrgung.
00:33:02.480 >> No.
00:33:02.720 >> And I know a lot of kids are very
00:33:04.480 sexually active, even Christian kids,
00:33:06.399 more than I even could imagine. You
00:33:08.480 know, I’m hearing about seventh graders
00:33:10.080 having sex in school bathrooms, right?
00:33:12.399 >> You’re like, "What? That’s just crazy to
00:33:14.880 me." But I believe that
00:33:19.120 we need to take a step back and a breath
00:33:22.240 in our lives and go if I do what I’m
00:33:25.440 about to do
00:33:27.440 and it comes full out that I’m doing
00:33:30.000 this where will you be in 5 years and is
00:33:32.799 it where you want to be?
00:33:34.799 >> Exactly. Exactly. And it’s even more so
00:33:37.760 now with with everything on social media
00:33:40.720 so much that the kids are posting
00:33:42.240 online. It never goes away. We we’ve
00:33:45.039 talked about this as employers at the
00:33:46.960 law firm. You know, somebody comes in
00:33:49.440 and applies for a job, you’re
00:33:51.840 immediately investigating them and
00:33:53.919 looking back to see what they’re like.
00:33:55.440 >> Absolutely. Your little cat outfit with
00:33:57.440 your pot smoking picture and you know,
00:34:01.039 whatever you’re doing, I’m going to go
00:34:03.120 look at your social media page,
00:34:04.799 >> right?
00:34:05.440 >> And if you’re somebody that I wouldn’t
00:34:07.120 want one of our clients to look up and
00:34:09.440 go, "Oh, you know, so and so works at
00:34:11.918 there. I’m going to go look them up.
00:34:14.399 No, I don’t want you in your cat outfit
00:34:19.199 pretending to poop in a litter box. I
00:34:22.159 mean, I don’t know why I picked that.
00:34:24.560 And they’re furries or something.
00:34:26.560 >> No, Megan.
00:34:28.560 I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s a
00:34:30.079 real story or not.
00:34:31.359 >> It’s not, but I mean,
00:34:34.239 >> I guess it’s possible.
00:34:35.359 >> It’s kind of like I remember somebody
00:34:36.719 interviewing and it was very off-putting
00:34:40.079 their social media. Let’s just put it
00:34:41.599 that way.
00:34:42.079 >> Right. Right.
00:34:44.079 Yeah.
00:34:46.560 So, do you like bologna sandwiches?
00:34:48.960 >> I do. I do. Thanks for asking. How about
00:34:51.679 you?
00:34:52.239 >> I do. You know, I used to make bologn
00:34:54.560 sandwiches as a kid with mayonnaise,
00:34:58.000 wonderbread.
00:34:59.040 >> Yeah.
00:34:59.440 >> And then I used to put uh chips and then
00:35:02.720 you get the sandwich and you and it
00:35:05.119 crunch and I want a bologn sandwich now.
00:35:09.280 >> That sounds great.
00:35:10.880 >> I don’t think we have any bologoney.
00:35:13.040 Dang it. We need to just Instacart some.
00:35:17.119 Isn’t that so crazy with Instacart?
00:35:19.599 Anyways, I got off track.
00:35:20.960 >> We’re kind of addicted to Instacart and
00:35:22.640 Door Dash.
00:35:24.240 >> Yes. It’s so easy just to be like, "Hey,
00:35:27.920 I want this at my house right now." Kind
00:35:30.560 of like feeds your shopping addiction.
00:35:34.079 >> My shopping addiction. Yes, it does.
00:35:35.760 Thank you for pointing that out. I
00:35:37.520 appreciate that.
00:35:38.560 >> You definitely have a shopping
00:35:40.000 addiction. I I get so frustrated seeing
00:35:43.280 the charges to Door Dash when it’s
00:35:45.440 >> You do
00:35:46.000 >> when it’s like $30 for uh an a juice
00:35:50.880 from Nectar and it’s one juice that
00:35:53.599 shows up.
00:35:54.240 >> That’s not Instacart. That’s Door Dash,
00:35:56.000 sir.
00:35:56.640 >> Yeah.
00:35:57.359 >> You said Instacart.
00:35:58.880 >> Whatever. Door Dash.
00:36:00.000 >> No, Instacart is the grocery store. Door
00:36:02.800 Dash, you’re ordering food. I’m all in
00:36:05.599 favor of using those services, but just
00:36:08.960 not for a single item. I absolutely
00:36:11.359 >> do that. You’re calling out your
00:36:12.800 daughter.
00:36:13.200 >> I’m I’m calling out our daughter. I’m
00:36:15.359 absolutely opposed to using those
00:36:18.079 services for one or two items because of
00:36:21.040 all the the the fees and the the charges
00:36:23.920 and the tips on top of it when I would
00:36:26.640 rather spend the time to go to the store
00:36:28.160 and get the one item
00:36:29.920 >> or wait until we have multiple items to
00:36:32.560 get. At least she’s spending it on that
00:36:34.320 and you’re not spending it on cheating
00:36:35.920 on another woman.
00:36:37.200 >> That’s true. Which is a very expensive
00:36:40.240 proposition. So that’s another reason.
00:36:42.400 Yes.
00:36:42.720 >> Is if you don’t have enough reasons not
00:36:44.560 to do it. That’s another one.
00:36:46.320 >> Oh yeah. Like just think about it.
00:36:48.400 >> It’s going to cost you your livelihood.
00:36:51.200 >> Well, it’s going to cost you your peace.
00:36:53.680 >> Yeah.
00:36:54.000 >> And it’s going to cost you your family.
00:36:55.920 >> Yeah.
00:36:56.560 >> Cuz women ain’t playing.
00:36:58.400 >> No.
00:36:58.880 >> I mean, I’m not saying you should ever
00:37:00.560 weaponize kids. You should never. I am
00:37:03.520 saying you should never. However, when
00:37:06.720 you mess with a woman’s emotions and you
00:37:09.520 tell her, "You’re the only one for me.
00:37:11.440 I’m going to forever be with you and I
00:37:13.680 love you so much," and then they find
00:37:16.560 out you’re cheating on them,
00:37:18.240 >> right?
00:37:19.040 >> I mean, women are the vicious ones, I
00:37:22.240 think, in relationships. Men are kind of
00:37:24.960 fumbling idiots a little bit. Have you
00:37:26.400 ever seen that? Like, not I mean, I I
00:37:28.000 shouldn’t say that. That’s so mean. But
00:37:29.520 do you ever see that like Tik Tok where
00:37:31.359 it’s like eigore or this like and you’re
00:37:34.800 like I found you now I can take you.
00:37:38.320 >> So that was the guy from the Goonies.
00:37:39.680 >> The guy from the Goonies. He goes you’re
00:37:41.760 going to take care of me now.
00:37:45.359 And you’re like yeah.
00:37:49.119 >> Women are always 10 steps ahead of guys.
00:37:51.440 You know they say we mature faster.
00:37:53.760 We’re always 10 steps ahead. And you
00:37:56.320 know you don’t think that we don’t have
00:37:57.599 it already in our mind. man, if that guy
00:37:59.280 cheated on us.
00:38:01.280 >> Yeah. Well, that gets back to the point
00:38:03.280 that we were making earlier, which is if
00:38:06.079 if you’re at that point where you think
00:38:08.560 your marriage is a lost cause, and
00:38:12.400 really and truly, we’re called to make
00:38:14.800 the marriage work. And there are
00:38:16.720 sometimes where you try everything, you
00:38:19.280 do everything, you get counseling, and
00:38:21.920 it doesn’t happen. and we’ve been
00:38:23.839 divorced. So, we’re not sitting here in
00:38:25.599 our ivory tower saying nobody should
00:38:27.359 ever get a divorce, but it’s something
00:38:29.359 to be avoided. But there are times where
00:38:33.280 relationships get to that point and it’s
00:38:36.960 time to call it off. Whether it’s an
00:38:39.040 abusive situation, which by all means,
00:38:41.280 get out of an abusive relationship.
00:38:42.880 >> It’s not. Sometimes I think there’s
00:38:44.320 people out there that really that really
00:38:47.839 love their spouse as a friend and think,
00:38:50.400 "I don’t want to break their heart, but
00:38:52.079 I I I can’t do this anymore." Right?
00:38:54.480 >> I don’t think I can physically be with
00:38:56.400 this person anymore.
00:38:57.920 >> It will always be
00:39:00.480 the better choice
00:39:03.920 to break their heart
00:39:07.119 without cheating on them. Be honest. Be
00:39:09.920 truthful. let them know that the
00:39:12.000 marriage is not working. And maybe
00:39:14.480 there’s a solution to it that they
00:39:15.839 hadn’t thought of. Maybe the other
00:39:17.599 person was completely in the dark about
00:39:19.520 it and realizes, "Oh, I didn’t realize
00:39:24.160 it was that bad. I I’m willing to
00:39:26.240 change. I, you know, we can work on this
00:39:28.079 together. Maybe that light bulb goes off
00:39:30.880 and there’s a solution to it."
00:39:32.720 >> Yeah. They’re just clueless about it.
00:39:34.240 They’re clueless that, you know, the
00:39:36.160 shoe the socks next to the bed is
00:39:38.880 annoying the woman that much.
00:39:40.880 >> Somebody make a note of that for me. I
00:39:42.640 don’t That’s
00:39:43.920 >> It doesn’t bother you. I That’s not
00:39:46.079 something that upsets me.
00:39:47.599 >> No, I know. I’m just kidding.
00:39:48.800 >> I I get upset because you’re not a good
00:39:50.640 communicator. Should we get into that?
00:39:52.480 No, I’m just kidding. I mean, you’re
00:39:54.000 not, but
00:39:54.960 >> No. When it comes to feelings, no, I’m
00:39:56.880 not.
00:39:57.680 >> Well, that’s most guys, huh?
00:39:59.200 >> Yeah.
00:39:59.680 >> But you’re getting better. Look at you
00:40:01.359 communicating on this on this podcast,
00:40:03.280 >> right?
00:40:04.160 >> That’s fabulous.
00:40:05.280 >> Getting back to the point, it will never
00:40:07.359 ever ever
00:40:09.119 be the right decision in the event that
00:40:12.079 you believe that your marriage is
00:40:14.960 irretrievably broken to cheat.
00:40:18.320 >> Yes. And I have one really serious
00:40:20.640 question for you.
00:40:21.599 >> Oh,
00:40:23.599 >> why is it an ivory tower?
00:40:25.760 >> It’s a great question. I don’t know the
00:40:27.359 answer to that. I’ll have to look it up.
00:40:29.200 Why isn’t it a marble tower?
00:40:31.280 >> Do this.
00:40:31.839 >> Is ivory and marble the same?
00:40:33.280 >> Ask chat GPT
00:40:35.280 >> right now.
00:40:38.000 >> That’s your go-to.
00:40:39.680 >> Hold on. Let’s find out. Hey Google, why
00:40:42.880 is it an ivory tower?
00:40:45.599 An ivory tower is a state of privilege
00:40:48.400 seclusion.
00:40:50.400 Oh, that sounds kind of racist. An ivory
00:40:53.920 tower is a state of privilege seclusion
00:40:56.000 from the practicalities of real life. An
00:40:58.560 ivory tower can be a place where people
00:41:00.560 choose to disconnect from the rest of
00:41:02.000 the world to follow their own interests,
00:41:04.319 usually mental or esoteric ones. From
00:41:07.119 the 19th century, it has been used to
00:41:08.720 designate an environment of intellectual
00:41:10.880 pursuit disconnected from the practical
00:41:13.280 concerns of everyday life. The term is
00:41:15.520 often used now to refer to academia or
00:41:18.480 the college and university systems. The
00:41:21.440 term originated from the biblical song
00:41:23.280 of songs 74 with a different meaning and
00:41:26.480 was later used as an epithet. Did I say
00:41:30.079 that right?
00:41:30.720 >> You did.
00:41:31.200 >> Epati
00:41:32.640 >> for Mary. An ivory tower as symbol of
00:41:37.119 Mary in the hunt of the unicorn
00:41:39.920 annunciation from the netherlandish book
00:41:42.960 of ours. Huh.
00:41:45.680 >> So don’t be up in your ivory tower.
00:41:50.800 I am not Rapunzel. Is that the right
00:41:53.359 movie? Rapunzel. Rapunzel, let down your
00:41:55.119 hair.
00:41:55.599 >> Yes.
00:41:56.560 >> I wouldn’t have put up with that witch.
00:41:58.319 I’d have figured out a way out.
00:42:02.240 >> So, Ken, is there anything that I could
00:42:03.680 change in our marriage that would make
00:42:04.960 you happier now that we’re here and
00:42:07.920 you’re on the spot?
00:42:08.800 >> Jeez, that really puts me on the spot. I
00:42:10.480 can’t think of anything. No.
00:42:13.280 >> Oh,
00:42:13.839 >> no. I’m happy.
00:42:15.440 >> Oh, well, thank you. I’m not asking you
00:42:18.000 the same question.
00:42:19.440 >> Why not?
00:42:23.520 >> Why? Why not? So, uh, it’s probably hell
00:42:27.520 for going back to the guy and the gal
00:42:29.760 from Coldplay.
00:42:31.280 >> There’s no question.
00:42:32.160 >> Well, you know what’s funny is Skyla or
00:42:34.400 Jack, somebody said if they didn’t move
00:42:36.319 and act all weird, no one would have
00:42:38.800 probably known.
00:42:40.720 Yeah, but that’s that’s their guilty
00:42:42.480 conscience and that’s that’s them
00:42:45.440 setting themselves up for failure.
00:42:47.440 >> Talking about guilty conscience, I see
00:42:50.079 so many different I watch Tik Tok a lot,
00:42:51.920 but so many videos on where guys are
00:42:55.599 like, "No, you can’t check my phone. If
00:42:57.520 you trusted me, you wouldn’t need to
00:42:59.760 check my phone." What are your feelings
00:43:01.280 on that? Tell the guys. Do you think
00:43:02.880 that women should be able to see what
00:43:04.720 their phone has on it?
00:43:05.920 >> Take my phone anytime and look at
00:43:08.480 everything on it. I have nothing to hide
00:43:10.640 from you. I and I believe wholeheartedly
00:43:13.280 that’s that’s where you
00:43:16.720 open yourself up when you start having
00:43:19.280 those even little secrets. Again, those
00:43:21.520 are more of those baby steps that we
00:43:23.119 talked about. It’s it’s the wrong thing
00:43:25.359 to do. The only way to have the marriage
00:43:29.520 work properly like the Bible wants us to
00:43:33.599 be is complete honesty and as an open
00:43:37.760 book. And so, no, I completely disagree
00:43:39.839 with that. I don’t hide anything from
00:43:41.119 you.
00:43:41.760 >> Absolutely. Because also for men that
00:43:43.760 are are successful and in business, they
00:43:48.480 can easily say, "Hey, I’m going on a
00:43:50.640 weekend for work or I’m leaving. I’m you
00:43:52.560 know, the guys and I are doing happy
00:43:54.000 hour or,
00:43:56.720 you know, we’re having a guy’s weekend
00:43:58.880 in Vegas." What do you think about those
00:44:01.119 things?
00:44:01.520 >> Yeah. I mean, honestly,
00:44:04.720 I was a guy who used to do those kinds
00:44:06.880 of things. I used to hide an aspect of
00:44:10.079 my life. I’d hide, you know, what was on
00:44:12.240 my phone and doing those types of
00:44:14.079 things. It’s all a mistake. It’s all the
00:44:17.440 wrong decision. It only leads to
00:44:19.920 destruction. We’re all subject to
00:44:24.720 making those bad decisions. We’re all
00:44:27.920 subject to attacks,
00:44:30.800 you know, from the spiritual, the
00:44:32.160 demonic world that suck us in. And I I
00:44:35.520 firmly believe that so much in today’s
00:44:38.880 society with uh with our popular
00:44:44.720 media, the way people dress, the way
00:44:47.280 people act, it’s all a gateway and it’s
00:44:50.319 this downward spiral that ends in porn
00:44:53.680 addiction that detracts from the
00:44:57.119 marriage. And you’ve got to have
00:45:00.079 accountability so that you don’t fall
00:45:02.960 victim to that. So that you protect
00:45:05.200 yourself, you protect your your wife,
00:45:07.359 you protect the marriage.
00:45:08.800 >> What about guys that are out there that
00:45:10.240 are going, "Ken, porn has saved my
00:45:13.119 marriage. Me using porn has kept me from
00:45:16.319 going out of my marriage physically." Is
00:45:19.520 it the same thing as physically
00:45:21.440 cheating? If you’re using porn, don’t do
00:45:24.240 men feel like that’s totally different.
00:45:27.280 I’m I’ve saved my marriage. I’ve saved
00:45:29.680 my kids because my wife doesn’t want to
00:45:31.760 have sex. my wife doesn’t want to put
00:45:33.599 out and I’m using porn to to keep our
00:45:38.160 marriage sacred because I feel like I’m
00:45:40.880 at least not going out of the marriage.
00:45:43.040 >> They’re fooling themselves.
00:45:45.839 It’s all like I said, it’s a downward
00:45:48.240 spiral. It’s it’s literally a drug in in
00:45:52.800 the brain. The brain treats it like a
00:45:54.480 drug and
00:45:56.640 it’s never enough. So, do you think
00:45:58.880 maybe the wife doesn’t want to have sex
00:46:00.560 with him because they’re not getting in
00:46:02.560 and flirting with the wife? They’re not
00:46:04.240 giving foreplay, you know, mental
00:46:06.319 foreplay all day long because they’re
00:46:08.079 getting satisfied
00:46:09.599 >> by the porn.
00:46:10.480 >> No, absolutely. Absolutely. And I I
00:46:12.880 promise you the whatever porn they’re
00:46:16.319 into is is not enough. They will
00:46:19.200 continue to go down that spiral and they
00:46:21.760 eventually will ruin their lives.
00:46:25.280 >> I agree. And the Bible says if you’ve
00:46:28.480 already committed sin with your eye,
00:46:31.119 what what is that? I’m so bad with
00:46:32.640 verses. I don’t remember the ver. Can
00:46:34.000 you look that up?
00:46:35.280 >> What is the actual Bible verse on that,
00:46:37.359 Ken?
00:46:39.599 >> Matthew 5:28. But I say to you that
00:46:43.760 whoever looks at a woman to lust for her
00:46:46.880 has already committed adultery with her
00:46:49.119 in his heart.
00:46:50.800 >> So that’s just by looking.
00:46:52.400 >> Yeah. Those aren’t my words. Those are
00:46:54.960 Jesus’s words.
00:46:56.079 >> So all you men that aren’t Christian, I
00:46:57.920 guess you’re on your own with that
00:47:00.560 analogy or conclusion,
00:47:03.119 I recommend you don’t do it.
00:47:04.319 >> Yeah. But even if they’re even if
00:47:05.599 they’re not Christian, they need to
00:47:07.119 understand what that’s doing to their
00:47:09.440 life. They need to understand the
00:47:12.960 dangers of the drug in their brain and
00:47:16.480 the addiction and how it will never be
00:47:19.280 enough. It will always push them to go
00:47:22.079 one step further. Yeah, eventually they
00:47:24.880 will want it physically and they’re
00:47:26.720 looking at a woman that looks nothing
00:47:28.079 like their wife. So, of course, there’s
00:47:30.240 going to be less attraction,
00:47:31.520 >> right? We’re very, very careful about
00:47:34.640 even the things that we watch on TV.
00:47:36.880 >> Yeah, we watch Vid Angel. Well, I think
00:47:40.240 we have
00:47:42.160 gone over time today. This is a very
00:47:44.640 interesting subject that I think most of
00:47:47.520 America and the world can relate with,
00:47:49.680 >> right? And so we’d like to thank you for
00:47:52.560 joining us at Cross-examined with the
00:47:55.920 Gerbers. And we can’t wait to see you
00:47:58.720 next time.